Participants:
Series Code: AFH
Program Code: AFH000015A
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00:01 A good father takes time to play.
00:05 He has strong integrity. 00:08 He is someone that is truly dedicated. 00:12 He is not afraid to show his love. 00:15 He is a caring provider. 00:19 And he is a kind spiritual leader. 00:23 These are just a few ways to describe A Father's Heart. 00:32 Hi. Welcome to A Father's Heart. 00:34 I'm your host Xavier. 00:36 Question I pose to you today is 00:38 where are the men in the church? 00:39 Specifically, where are the fathers in the church? 00:42 And with me, to discuss that today, 00:44 is my friends Gordon and Paul. 00:46 How are you guys doing today? 00:48 Great, man. I'm grateful to be here. 00:50 Amen. So that's the question. 00:52 Where are the men, you know, specifically the fathers 00:54 because statistics show on a worldwide scale, 00:58 on a worldwide church scale, 00:59 aside from Adventism and everything, 01:02 it shows that 80% of the churches 01:05 are comprised of women, 20% are men. 01:07 And obviously, fathers are men. 01:10 We want to know where are our fathers, 01:12 where are our men? 01:14 True, true, true. 01:15 That is a challenge for us within the church. 01:17 But I mean, we plan for things, 01:20 we work hard towards objectives, case in point. 01:23 I'm grateful to be here. 01:25 I packed very well. 01:27 No sooner than I got here and I unpacked, 01:29 I realized there was something that I forgot to pack, socks. 01:34 I had no socks. 01:36 I'm grateful to my brother here, 01:38 for the pastor here, 01:39 for allowing and sharing his socks with me. 01:43 So if anybody has questions 01:44 about why the preacher looks so socksy today, 01:50 pastor right here, but likewise, likewise, 01:53 there are things in church 01:54 that we make every effort to be intentional about. 01:57 This one is very serious. 01:58 Why are there or why is there not more men, 02:03 not more fathers in the church, 02:04 since we are such an integral part 02:07 of that nurture process for the family. 02:10 We look back at the time of Christ, 02:12 and when they were numbering by men, 02:16 all those numbers we see referenced in scripture, 02:19 Old, New Testament, they're counting men. 02:22 They often would not include women and children. 02:26 And those numbers were significant, 02:28 day of Pentecost over thousands, 02:30 and so on and so forth, Jesus feeding the hungry, 02:32 thousands again. 02:34 What happened? 02:36 Where are we? 02:37 I think there's a fundamental, 02:39 there's a breakdown that has taken place 02:43 in the home through generations. 02:46 And it has brought us to this point 02:48 where we don't have fathers in the church. 02:51 We don't have men in the church. 02:54 I think they're busy, or the devil has them busy, 02:58 dealing with sports 03:00 because you can find them in the sports arena. 03:03 You can find them doing all these macho things 03:06 instead of being in the church, 03:09 you know? And if you go back in the Bible, 03:11 you realize that, and the devil knows this, 03:14 you realize that God has called men to be priests, 03:19 to be fathers, 03:21 to be that pivotal role of guiding their children, 03:26 of leading the church. 03:29 And I think the devil knows that. 03:30 So what he has done is that he has distracted men. 03:35 I think fathers and men don't know their purpose, 03:38 what role and what purpose they have in the church. 03:42 And so as a result, in has caused them to... 03:47 Instead of being a part of the church, 03:49 it has caused them just to sit back, and stay home, 03:52 and pick up that remote, 03:54 and you know, watch the different games. 03:57 I think that is one of the fundamental problems. 03:59 The devil has caused the distraction, 04:01 that's why we don't have men in the church 04:04 because he knows the power of the father, 04:06 he knows the power of their role. 04:10 And I really enjoy that, you know, what you just said. 04:13 It's just so different, 04:14 you know, in trying to figure out 04:16 where are the fathers. 04:18 You know, Ephesians talks about, 04:20 in the book of Ephesians 5, it goes into discussion, 04:23 and we use that a lot, 04:24 you know, we talk about 04:26 how men are supposed to love their wives 04:27 as Christ loves his church, 04:29 and then we infamously use the verse about women 04:34 in a negative light, in a way that is, 04:37 you know, not the best. 04:39 But at the same time, 04:41 I have to think about all the fathers in the Bible, 04:44 you know, and what can we do, 04:47 what is it or what is so negative 04:51 about church culture, 04:53 about our culture that is keeping the fathers 04:57 not only out of the homes 04:58 but out of the church in its entirety? 05:02 Before I would answer that, 05:03 I would ask a question for clarity. 05:04 And I know the question that resonates is, well, 05:07 whose fault is it? 05:09 Is this a societal problem? 05:11 Is this a general predicament of society or is this something 05:15 that's the immediate fault of the church? 05:16 Is this something that 05:18 we're doing wrong as pastors within our church 05:20 or leaders within our church? 05:23 Is it that we changed from the original model? 05:27 What is it exactly? 05:29 I think it's clear direction. 05:31 I think men need direction. 05:33 They need to find a purpose. 05:35 They need to know what is it that we need to be doing, 05:38 what God expects of us. 05:41 And for that, I run to 1 Timothy. 05:45 It gives a... 05:46 And if I may, I just want to read it 05:48 because I think it's a powerful text. 05:50 1 Timothy 2:8, 05:53 where Timothy gives a direct focus 05:57 as what men should be doing, 05:59 what the fathers should be doing. 06:00 The Bible says, "I desire, therefore, 06:02 that the men pray everywhere, lifting up holy hands, 06:07 without wrath and doubting." 06:09 So what this is is a purpose. 06:12 Men's purpose is to be praying. 06:16 And if the men and the fathers are praying, 06:20 it brings the God down into our space, 06:25 and therefore, situations are different, 06:29 therefore lives are changed 06:31 because when we pray, we know what happens. 06:33 And I think the devil knows that. 06:36 He knows that that is the purpose 06:38 God has called us. 06:39 One of the greatest purposes 06:40 that God has called us is to pray, 06:43 fathers need to be praying for the children. 06:45 Ellen White would say that the job of the father, 06:51 that priest, is to, in the mornings, 06:55 take his children and his family to the altar, 06:57 pray for them, 06:59 ask God to forgive their known 07:01 as well as their unknown sins. 07:03 So that is the pivotal role of the father, of the men. 07:07 And because they don't know what it is, 07:10 they tend to find other things to do. 07:13 That's what I think. 07:14 Again, whose fault is that? 07:17 Is it something we are doing wrong? 07:19 And so are we... 07:20 We were not educating. 07:22 Are we not nurturing that? 07:23 We're not, we're not nurturing that, 07:24 we're not talking about it, 07:26 you know? Man is left to figure things out themselves, 07:29 you know, just figure it out. 07:32 And it seems like we're lacking commitment, 07:34 like we're lacking that commitment, 07:36 almost like we're afraid to commit 07:38 to a role that is given to us as fathers, 07:42 a God given role. 07:43 You know, an important role because if you notice, 07:47 not only are the fathers, 07:49 you know, being put out of the church 07:50 but a lot of them are no longer in the home. 07:52 They find ways to get astray from their marriage, 07:55 from their children's lives, 07:57 you know, and our kids see that, 07:59 our children see, 08:01 and that's the other factor 08:02 that we do not understand is the fact that we think, 08:05 you know, kids, mom, 08:07 kids, mom, kids, mom. 08:09 No, it's kids, father. 08:10 You know, we are fathers, 08:12 we are called to be there and show that example. 08:15 And that's the other issue, 08:17 are we just afraid to be committed 08:21 to what we're called to do? 08:22 Is it a fear of commitment? 08:24 I don't think it is a fear of commitment. 08:26 Going back again. 08:27 I think it's a fear of not knowing, 08:31 not knowing, that's what I think. 08:33 We need to know, 08:34 men need to know, do this, do that. 08:37 My wife would make fun of me sometimes. 08:40 I can't do four things at a time. 08:42 I can do one. 08:44 Well, you've got to give me some clear direction. 08:46 And I think a lot of men are like that. 08:48 Give them clear direction 08:49 that this is what you need to do, 08:51 and then we'll do it, we'll execute it. 08:53 But we don't know what we need. So it's not... 08:55 We can't be committed if we don't know 08:56 what we're committing to. 08:58 So then what do we do? 08:59 I mean, we have evangelistic series. 09:03 We have everything, 09:06 we have baptisms, we have altar calls, 09:09 we send out flyers, 09:10 we do Facebook posts, everything. 09:14 What can we do 09:16 to get our fathers involved back in the church 09:19 and in their children's lives 09:21 to be the priest of the home once more? 09:24 Right, well, pastor here says nurturing, 09:26 and I certainly value that. 09:28 I think it is primarily a societal problem, 09:33 yet one that we need to hold ourselves 09:35 accountable for addressing. 09:37 So there are a lot of things that impact that status 09:42 or that statistic 09:46 that we don't really have much to do with. 09:48 Take, for example, China and other nations 09:53 wherein you don't have a large presence 09:56 of men in the church because of oppression. 09:59 So women are allowed to worship, 10:01 but some parts of China, 10:03 if you are a man and you are present, 10:05 you get arrested. 10:06 And there are other places in the world like that. 10:08 There are a lot more tolerance extended towards women. 10:11 And then there are societal changes 10:13 even here in our nation, 10:17 the masculinity of society, 10:19 and what's now attractive in media, 10:23 for example, but yes, 10:25 we need to be proactive about how we address those deficits. 10:29 I try to look at myself, 10:31 in each of the church that I pass, 10:33 I try to look at myself as a community leader, 10:36 so I'm observing what's happening in community, 10:38 I'm observing what's changing in the community, 10:40 what's lacking in the community, 10:41 and I'm doing my best 10:43 through my own ministry to address those needs. 10:48 The accountability factor 10:49 I'm talking about here is the things 10:52 that we are not doing that we can do. 10:55 For example, 10:56 does your church have a men's ministry 10:59 wherein you allow men an opportunity to be empowered 11:03 and you allow them to feel valued? 11:07 If men just come into the church and sit 11:10 and they may not be aesthetically, 11:15 you know, preoccupied to like how the environment looks 11:19 or like how it sounds, 11:20 you know, those things may not matter to them as much, 11:22 you know? So you have to get... 11:24 It's important that we keep men involved 11:26 and that we also keep them involved 11:28 and engaged in exercising leadership. 11:32 Those are things that we must ensure. 11:35 One thing that we do, 11:37 we have something called ten minute men, 11:40 going on the same model as empowering and teaching 11:44 and nurturing. 11:45 Then, after church, all the men, 11:48 if you are there for the first time, 11:51 we go into the conference room, we ask one of our elders, 11:53 he calls all the men, 11:55 they go into the conference room 11:57 for ten minutes, 11:58 we sit down and we talk about manhood, 12:02 what it is to be that father, what it is to be, 12:05 you know, to walk in the call and walk in the giftedness 12:09 that God has placed within your heart 12:10 to be a father, 12:12 and what we have find out is that it is... 12:15 We have 13-year-olds. 12:17 See you've got to start there. 12:19 And we have the young guys. 12:22 They're there and they're listening, 12:24 they are listening to the older men sharing it, 12:27 they're listening to, 12:28 you know, so they're getting something 12:30 from what is shared. 12:33 That, to me, makes a shift 12:36 because everyone is contributing 12:39 to the development of the younger ones 12:42 and the older ones are getting something 12:44 from the young 12:46 because they're hearing the feedback. 12:48 You know, what is it like 12:49 to be in a home without a father? 12:51 What is it like being in a church 12:53 and, you know, your father is not there? 12:56 You're there with your mother. 12:58 So what happens when you 13:01 when that young man is now grown, 13:05 choices that he would probably make 13:07 is to not be at church. 13:11 Well. 13:12 What if I say, I'm a father, to me, Jesus is weak. 13:18 You know, I got to be sensitive. 13:20 I got to be, you know... 13:24 Jesus is going to make me weak, you know? 13:27 I got to be a man, I got to be tough, 13:29 I got to be showing my kids. 13:30 I got to make sure that they see a tough father, 13:33 but Jesus is going to make me cry. 13:35 Maybe we may be sensitive, 13:38 and now I got to commit myself to come into a building, 13:43 you know, and be some kind of elder, 13:46 or something, and this, and that, 13:48 and then, you know, for what? 13:51 How is me coming to a brick building 13:55 going to keep me or get me into heaven? 13:59 Why can't I just pray at home? 14:02 Why can't I just, you know, be a dad at home? 14:04 I mean I can google all this stuff. 14:06 Why can't I just be a father at home? 14:09 Why do I have to come to church? 14:12 For what? 14:13 Let me share something with you. 14:14 I have to say... 14:16 And growing up, 14:17 because my dad was not in the church, 14:20 my dad left the church, and so it was my mom. 14:25 I got to a certain age, moved to Florida, 14:28 and I had the same idea. 14:29 And I said to my mom, "I don't have to go to church. 14:32 I can stay at home and I can watch church 14:35 and I can experience God at home." 14:39 And that's what I started doing. 14:41 Why? 14:43 Because my model, my father model wasn't there. 14:47 But what God did to me in my life changed that 14:53 because when I stayed at home 14:54 and I would watch church, 14:55 I felt that I was drifting 14:57 farther and farther away from the church. 14:59 So staying at home or watching church at home 15:03 is not the answer, was not the answer for me. 15:06 And so I don't, you know, 15:08 I think we have to let the men know that Jesus, 15:12 he was sensitive, it's okay to be sensitive. 15:15 Did He weep? Amen. 15:16 Right? Amen. 15:18 So it's okay to weep. 15:20 I don't have a problem crying. 15:21 I mean, I cry, you know? 15:23 Well. 15:25 I do agree. 15:27 And I am hearing in between the lines 15:28 here the value of mentorship 15:31 which is another good value to have within the church 15:34 as it relates to men, 15:36 ensuring that older men are empowering younger men. 15:40 I think it's also of great value 15:41 that we start early, 15:42 that we not wait until men are missing, 15:45 that we do our best proactively to address 15:49 that challenge in youth 15:52 because if they're present in the church 15:55 through their youth and teenage years, 15:57 as teenage men or teenage boys, 16:00 it's more likely that we may be able to retain them 16:04 into adulthood, into their manhood. 16:06 So we also need to be very intentional 16:10 about what we're doing with our young males 16:13 at this time and to ensure that 16:16 they are receiving the appropriate nurturing, 16:18 as you were saying here, 16:20 Christ is the greatest leader that I see as a model, 16:23 I have no greater example or model of leadership 16:27 than what Christ Himself demonstrated. 16:29 And at the zenith of that 16:31 was His sacrificial relationship with humanity. 16:35 So it's a good thing for our boys 16:37 to learn that value, 16:39 that in being sacrificial, you are being a man, 16:42 in being responsible, you are being a man. 16:45 But it's not until you actually go through 16:48 and experience God for yourself as a Father. 16:54 If you grow up without that father figure, 16:58 you will tend to do the same thing 17:01 and repeat the same mistakes as your father. 17:03 And that is what I was struggling with. 17:06 When I stayed at home, 17:07 it wasn't until I experienced and I know that God was love 17:11 and I know that God cared for me 17:13 and I know that he's always there for me. 17:17 That's what brought a change in my life. 17:19 I had to end up behind bars. 17:23 I had to end up looking at a life sentence 17:26 before I could really come to my senses, 17:29 and nothing that, you know, that I asked for, 17:32 but it's because I made some choices. 17:34 I made a choice to stay home and said, "I don't want God. 17:37 I don't want this thing called church. 17:38 I don't want this. 17:40 I'm going to watch it on television. 17:42 I want to be good just doing that." 17:45 And I learned that because I didn't have a mentor. 17:48 And I was going to church. 17:49 I was going through the emotions. 17:51 But I didn't have Jesus. 17:54 I didn't have Him in my life. 17:56 I didn't know who He was. 17:57 But behind bars, 17:59 when I find that I had nowhere to go, 18:01 I had no one to turn to, 18:04 and I remembered somewhere in the back of my head 18:07 that I can cry out to somebody 18:11 who I can just cry out 18:16 because somehow my mother 18:20 had placed Him inside of me, 18:23 my heart. 18:26 And when I cried out to Him in my desperation, 18:30 in my brokenness, 18:34 and He started to talk to me... 18:39 then I knew, 18:41 He was a God who cared for me. 18:44 And that's why this man 18:48 is in the church today. 18:52 That's why I can look 18:56 and try to mentor other young men to stay 19:02 and know that this God is love. 19:05 Unless you have that experience... 19:09 No. Amen. 19:11 It's true. Yeah. 19:12 It's true because, you know, it's ironic how, 19:17 as fathers, you know, 19:20 we're sitting here sharing our brokenness. 19:23 We are pastors. 19:25 We're men of the cloth, 19:26 we're supposed to be perfect. Yeah. 19:27 You know what? I'm reminded 19:30 the three angriest disciples, 19:33 the three most temperamental disciples, 19:35 one chopping somebody's ear off, 19:38 and the other two fishermen, 19:40 probably were like sailors and angry, I mean, 19:43 just impulsive anger, 19:44 they were the three closest to Jesus. 19:49 You know, I had a good friend of mine in seminary. 19:52 People misunderstood me because we all have an issue 19:54 with temper sometimes, 19:55 I still struggle with it 19:57 'cause certain things just irk me, 19:58 it just gets under my skin. 20:00 But God showed His mercy 20:03 and His love through those examples. 20:07 And I'm always intrigued by this friend in the seminary. 20:11 Everybody thought I was being kind of aggressive 20:15 in my speech. 20:16 But he knew, maybe because he's Caribbean too, 20:19 but he said, "No, he's not aggressive. 20:20 He is just passionate." 20:22 You know, and it's so critical as fathers to show our kids 20:27 that brokenness, 20:29 to show if we are here not because of Jesus, 20:33 then why are we not out there teaching other broken fathers, 20:37 broken men about this same healer 20:40 that doesn't require you to be whole? 20:42 In fact, He wants you partly broken 20:44 so that He can make you whole again. 20:46 Why aren't we out there doing more work? 20:48 Why are we just talking from behind a pulpit? 20:50 What can we do? 20:51 What can we do to do more? 20:55 Because we don't want to be vulnerable. 20:57 We don't want to share what's inside of us. 21:02 And so because of that, we tend not to share. 21:06 We want to just hide behind this perfect self, 21:10 whatever that is, whatever that looks like. 21:13 And we just don't want to share. 21:16 The problem with our society 21:17 is because we're not sharing with our young men. 21:20 I'm not sure 21:23 we will ever be able to see the statistics, 21:26 the figures, that we would like to see, 21:29 a 50-50, for example. 21:32 But it should not impair our ability or action 21:37 to be as active as possible 21:40 in reaching out in all these things 21:42 that we're sharing here. 21:46 The small group approach is also very helpful. 21:48 Yes. 21:50 And our churches need to be more responsible 21:53 or intentional in terms of male bonding. 21:56 So that statistic, actually, 21:59 I don't think it's as much referencing men 22:01 that never come to the church. 22:03 I think it also has a lot to do with retention. 22:06 Men may visit some holiday or for a child's baptism 22:09 or for a wedding or whatever have you, 22:12 it's the retention that's also a factor there. 22:15 So we have to market ourselves better. 22:18 This is not to say okay, it's the church fault, 22:20 why it's a 80-20 balance? 22:22 As I said, I think there are things, 22:23 societally, that factor in there. 22:26 But we need to remain proactive about just doing everything 22:29 that we can do in that sense. 22:30 Know the needs of your community. 22:32 If it's a question of low unemployment, 22:34 then you ought to be having some stuff at your church 22:37 that's dealing with increasing employment in the community, 22:40 job fairs, 22:42 whatever it will be that you can do 22:43 within your church setting for that community 22:46 to attract men also, 22:48 classes on parenting, in my former responsibility, 22:52 my former professional responsibility 22:54 as a family counselor, 22:56 you'd be surprised when I would have cases 22:57 where it was a father leading a household. 23:01 The men were very committed 23:03 to learning the parenting skills necessary 23:06 to be able to present themselves competent, 23:08 you know, within the court so they could have their... 23:11 Be reunified with their children. 23:13 So all those things are important. 23:16 Workshops, 23:19 if it's a matter of education for substance abuse, 23:23 it's a great problem in many of our communities with men. 23:27 Divorce is a great problem. 23:29 Financial management is a great problem. 23:31 So we need to ensure 23:32 that we have all these things in place 23:34 so we can be as attractive 23:35 as we can to the men of our community, 23:38 and lastly, big one today, advocacy. 23:42 Advocacy, and that is getting behind the male population 23:45 for our community, especially as it pertains to advocacy. 23:48 The imbalance we have in society today 23:50 as a release of civilians and law enforcement, 23:53 we have a role to present 23:54 law enforcement as a trusted body, 23:56 we have police officers in our congregation, 23:58 most of us, you know? 24:00 And we have to be able to embrace 24:03 and help both sides, 24:04 you know, whether it's the civilian 24:06 that has a need for advocacy 24:08 in terms of being able to get along better 24:10 with the civil authorities 24:12 or whether it's the civil authority 24:13 that needs to be presented in a more positive light 24:16 and work towards bringing those two together, 24:18 all those things contribute. 24:19 So we need to start a movement. 24:21 Yes. 24:22 That puts men into groups, 24:26 small groups where they can talk, 24:28 where they can engage, they can express themselves 24:31 because that's one of the biggest issues. 24:33 Men are not willing to express. 24:35 But I think once you get them in a small group, 24:37 that's what we're finding in our ten minute men, 24:40 get them into that small group, they express themselves, 24:43 and I'm hoping, 24:45 our long-term goal is that this concept of ten minute men 24:49 can start in different churches, 24:52 right in the curriculum, 24:53 so it can start different churches, 24:55 and it can spread out across the world 24:57 so that men can be empowered, 24:59 you know, men need to be doing something, 25:01 they need to know what their purpose is. 25:03 They need to have a purpose, their purpose is to pray, 25:06 their purpose is to help, 25:07 their purpose is to do something. 25:09 And I think if we started doing that, 25:11 we will find that we'll have more retention, 25:14 we'll retain them in the church, 25:16 and we'll have more men in the church. 25:18 And I think that's just key for us to be able to do that 25:21 because we can go through every possible scenario, 25:25 every process detail, but at the end of the day, 25:28 it's up to us to do something, 25:31 just like injustices happening in this world. 25:34 You can be silent about it, it's still going to happen 25:36 or you can do something about it. 25:38 And as fathers who were once 25:42 without God, so to speak, 25:45 we should be able to step up a little more 25:48 and really speak to these fathers 25:50 who are out of the church 25:53 to come back into their kids' lives, 25:55 to come back and do what they're given 25:57 and not just that but ease hem into it 25:59 and help them understand what that is, 26:01 what they're supposed to be like 26:03 and how God sees them and values them 26:05 and that they don't have to be perfect, 26:08 they can just do what they need to do. 26:10 And I think, 26:13 as we discussed today, 26:17 there's so many of those details 26:20 when it comes to fatherhood, 26:21 especially when it comes to fathers in the church. 26:25 There are so many things, you know, you can be scared, 26:27 I've been scared, we've all been scared. 26:30 There's apprehension, 26:31 there's I don't want to do this 26:32 or I don't want to do that in the church. 26:35 The key is not about what you are 26:36 or are not going to do in the churches, 26:38 it's just to get connected, 26:40 you know, you don't live on an island by yourself, 26:44 it's so critical, we need each other, 26:46 it sounds soft, so to speak, 26:49 but honestly, as fathers, we do need each other. 26:52 I don't know what I would do without my friends 26:54 to support each other, to laugh, to joke, 26:56 to share ideas, share notes, 26:59 whatever it may be because fatherhood is hard. 27:03 It's hard enough without believing in God 27:05 or without being with God. 27:08 And why keep, you know, delaying it? 27:11 Why keep on putting it off, 27:15 making excuses, 27:17 you know, watching sports, 27:20 keeping yourself preoccupied with things 27:22 that really are not kingdom building, 27:25 things that are not of value to your children. 27:29 Even if you don't do it for yourself, 27:30 do it for your family. 27:32 This is not about you. 27:33 It's about our families, our kids. 27:36 We live in a broken society 27:37 and the devil is truly out there 27:40 seeking to see who he may devour. 27:43 It's not a fact, it's a reality. 27:46 Do yourself a favor. 27:47 Step up. 27:49 And if you have questions 27:50 because you're scared or afraid, 27:52 you can always contact us at afh@3abn.org. 27:57 Please do yourself a favor, 27:59 even if it's just for one Sabbath, 28:01 come to church. 28:03 Thank you. |
Revised 2020-12-02