Participants: Xavier Morales (Host), Denry White, Gordon Fraser
Series Code: AFH
Program Code: AFH000002A
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00:01 A good father takes time to play
00:05 He has strong integrity 00:07 He is someone that is truly dedicated 00:11 He's not afraid to show his love 00:16 He's a caring provider 00:20 And, he's a kind, spiritual leader 00:22 These are just a few ways to describe a father's heart 00:30 Hi welcome to A Father's Heart My name is Xavier 00:33 and I got a question for you 00:35 Have you ever been caught in the middle? 00:37 Have you ever been caught between a rock and a hard place? 00:41 Today's topic is Caught In The Middle. 00:43 What to do to help your child? 00:45 And with me today are guests Gordon Fraser and Denry White 00:50 How you guys doing today? 00:52 Real good. Good man. Good to be back 00:56 Well have you ever been caught in the middle? 00:57 What does it look like for a child to be caught in the middle 01:00 What do you think about when you hear something like that? 01:03 Well if I'm assuming what you're talking about is that 01:07 when especially a situation like a divorce or argument 01:11 and the child is stuck in the middle, sometimes literally in 01:15 the middle and they feel like they have to make a decision 01:18 between mom or dad, I know for myself I've been stuck 01:23 in that place for a long, for a couple of times. 01:26 Quite a few times 01:27 You know exactly what we're talking about, it's the fact 01:29 that the child is caught in the middle, you know, and 01:33 I myself have a child from a previous marriage 01:37 and I know in co-parenting class they teach you not to put 01:41 your child in the middle 01:43 You know it's not about what you feel or how you feel about the 01:47 other parent but your child, what your child needs 01:50 And I know myself, I came you know, my parents are celebrating 01:53 40 years of marriage and it's like sometimes even in their 02:00 disagreements you kind of feel stuck. And it does something to 02:04 you. I don't know, what do you think Gordon? 02:06 I mean I look at a child, two parents have a disagreement 02:11 like you said or they're fightin and not speakin to each other 02:16 And the one will say, tell your father that. 02:19 The other one will say tell your mother that 02:21 That is not a good thing for the child because the child 02:25 feels pressured to choose, you know, choose sides and the child 02:29 should never be in that kind of a situation where they have 02:33 to choose which parent they should please. 02:38 And that's where we put our children when we get them 02:41 caught up. We're grown. I mean we're grown people 02:44 We need to leave our children out of our arguments 02:48 they should never be involved in our argument 02:53 My aunt used to say, keep the kids away from all the different 02:58 types of, not in front of the children 03:00 was her favorite saying. 03:01 So that's something we should do as parents, keep our children 03:05 out of it, don't let them feel that they have to choose 03:09 because it adds undue stress for them, they're already going 03:14 through a lot. So we shouldn't give them that, put them through 03:18 that kind of stress. 03:19 And it also, I feel like, diminishes one parent. 03:24 Because the child's going to choose and sometimes the 03:28 conversation or the situation one parent may put the child 03:32 against the other parent and it diminishes and I know for men 03:36 you know men in general, every man likes to be respected 03:40 and if the mother or the wife whatever the case may be 03:45 speaks negative of the father it diminishes that guy's authority 03:54 or who he is as a person. So whether it's true or false 03:59 it's like you break down that individual. 04:04 It does. Attacking any parent, more specifically the father 04:10 diminishing who he is as a father, it does and actually 04:15 it wears on the child because from my perspective 04:20 what I read and study is that God the Father, the image of 04:25 God the Father comes through the physical father, your child 04:30 sees you not essentially as God but they see an image of God 04:37 through you. They mimic their relationship that we have with 04:41 God through what you do and when you do these certain of things 04:47 as far as making them decide or be caught in the middle 04:51 You know, go tell your mother or tell this to your mother or 04:55 tell this to your father, that kind of thing, it does, you know 04:58 you're really hampering that relationship, you're basically 05:01 marring the image of God. 05:03 Let me grab my pillow on this one. Going into that moment 05:08 So there was a situation I had where my parents were you know 05:16 they were just going at each other, literally. 05:21 Throughout their marriage, you know that time period 05:24 and my mom, I guess just having someone to talk to because 05:31 sometimes we don't understand our parents, sometimes they 05:33 get stressed out, sometimes they want someone to talk with 05:36 and so she saw me as that outlet 05:39 so instead of going to her friends or someone else 05:42 she saw me as the outlet. So she would come all the time 05:46 and tell me about what my dad wasn't doing. 05:50 It was most of the time stuff like just problems that they 05:54 have, he's not helping me here he's not doing this and you know 05:58 what that was doing slowly to me it was eating me away 06:01 and how I felt towards my dad 06:04 Whatever love, whatever respect I had for him was just slowly 06:08 being pulled away, I had a resentment for him, for years 06:13 because of those conversations with her. I don't think that 06:17 a child should have that dialogue, it's not fair to the 06:21 child. They should be able to make a decision on their own 06:26 A child is not an attorney or not even a jury you know they 06:31 should be able to come and make on their own, ok mom is messed 06:36 up, dad is messed up. No one is perfect but if you pull a 06:39 child in there and especially if you get close with them and 06:43 feed them you know they may feel like, Ugh 06:49 they have that resentment 06:51 It's not the child's fault, they didn't want to be born, so 06:55 I mean they're children. They're still dealin with the fun stuff 07:00 as they should be dealin with but a lot of times as parents 07:03 we put them into this situation and they have to grow up before 07:08 their time and then they become monsters later on down the road 07:13 and so we shouldn't put our kids in this situation 07:16 we need to be as fathers, I think we need to reflect 07:22 the image of Christ as that father, our role as far as 07:28 that priestly role, the head of the household. So we should be 07:33 able to pull back and hold our pride if there's an argument or 07:38 if there's something that's going on between the husband and 07:43 wife. Pull back and say time out. Let's take a break. 07:48 Let's not get our children involved, let's work this out 07:52 ourselves without pulling the children into the mix. 07:56 And I think we don't do that effectively and it's one thing 07:58 we should do. Because of that priestly role 08:01 Maybe our spouse, maybe the wife can't do it because you know 08:06 that's another topic, emotional women get very emotional 08:10 but us men, we should be able, as good fathers, to realize 08:16 when this is going in the wrong direction and be strong enough 08:22 to kill our pride and say, you know what, let's not get the 08:27 children involved, let's not put the kids in the middle of this. 08:31 You know I'm very cautious about what I say about my wife 08:38 to my children. Even if I'm upset at her I'm very cautious 08:45 because of that experience with my parents, cause my dad too 08:49 you know, to be honest, when he would have me in his corner 08:54 trying to pull me in his corner there's things he would say too 08:57 you know I don't understand your mother this, your mother that 09:00 and I already had the resentment coming in and now it's these two 09:05 people trying to pull like a tug-of-war like, hey I need you 09:09 on my side. So I intentionally only talk positive things about 09:14 my wife to my kids. No matter what's going on. 09:20 Does that make us selfish as fathers or a father that's tryin 09:25 to pull that child to look at their side as the best, they're 09:30 the great father. So here's my side of the story 09:34 trying to put the other person down and trying to make yourself 09:39 look good. I mean that's a whole selfish mentality 09:44 that we have and we shouldn't have that as godly fathers, 09:49 because that's not at the heart of God. The heart of God is 09:52 forgiveness, the heart of God is reconciliation and we shouldn't 09:56 let our kids be involved in the mix. 09:59 That's interesting because, and again I bring a different 10:02 perspective on that because I don't come from a divorced 10:04 background but the coping mechanisms I saw of my dad 10:09 where he would get angry at my mom or have a disagreement 10:13 it was just pure rage. It wasn't until later when I was an adult 10:17 that he apologized and we talked about it and he said that's not 10:19 an appropriate way to respond but now that I have been 10:24 divorced in the past and I have a 4 year old, there's times when 10:27 I'm like, you know I want to say something like in regards to how 10:34 I feel but I hold back because it's not her fault. 10:38 It's not her fault and I don't have the right to hurt my child 10:42 at all. For what? I'm an adult and I need to cope with 10:47 certain strategies and my wife she comes from a background of 10:51 you know, her parents weren't together and actually use her 10:55 mom's example, my mother in law because my mother in law, and 10:58 my wife told me this that she never talked negatively 11:01 about her father and my wife taught me that, you know never 11:06 you know your child should never be in the middle 11:08 it's not their fault and I'm telling you that pride that 11:12 you talked about, the pride thing, it was hard first couple 11:16 years it was hard but I had to let that pride die and really 11:19 focus on the fact that that's my daughter, she's innocent 11:22 she didn't ask to be here but yet the Lord sought to bring 11:26 her here, not just to bless me but bless her mother and bless 11:29 everybody around so why should I take anything out on her 11:35 so it's critical that you know that we understand that children 11:40 whether we like it or not, whether you're divorced or 11:42 together whatever it might be somewhere, somehow 11:45 they're caught in the middle lot of times and that's part of 11:48 the devil's scheme but it's our job as priestly men as godly men 11:53 to step up, even if we don't know how to step up 11:57 cause we don't know how, there's no instructions 11:59 even if we don't know how, just to take that initial step 12:02 forward of letting self go. And that's important, I don't 12:07 know, I mean that's just the way I see it. 12:08 No, you're right. We try to have a good nucleus with our 12:14 children but you can't do it by yourself. 12:19 Remember they didn't come into this world by you alone 12:24 There's two people that brought them into this world 12:27 so there needs to be peace in order for you to really have 12:32 good relationship with this child, you need to have a 12:35 good relationship with the spouse or with the lady or 12:40 the mother of the child. You need that and a lot of times 12:43 you know I use this in a marital counsel sometimes when I'm 12:47 counseling couples that a lot of times you have the war going on 12:52 in the household right, and people feel like, ok, if the 12:57 husband feels like I've won this battle, I've won this argument 13:00 you know, yeah, yeah I've won this battle today. But every time 13:05 you win the marriage loses. Or the relationship loses 13:10 and now to add a child in there every time you win, 13:15 the family loses. You should never have an argument or 13:20 discussion with your spouse or your girlfriend or whatever 13:23 or the child's mother and feel Oh yeah, I've won this finally 13:28 You lost, you really lost especially if the child is 13:32 in front, is involved, you've lost because you brought down 13:36 the other person and in that child's mind that person is 13:41 defeated so you're going to treat them a certain way 13:44 like they're a carpet under your feet. 13:47 That's true, a lot of times we do stuff like that because we 13:52 bring other people down to make ourselves look good. 13:54 And that's what we do. Exactly. 13:57 What about this concept? We ourselves as human beings 14:01 are caught in the middle. Between the biggest custody 14:03 battle ever known to man. 14:06 It's a custody battle between God and the devil 14:08 Yeah. Now why don't we look to Him as an example you know 14:11 Our Father, God the Father, look to Him as He handles 14:15 when we're caught in the middle. Does He ever put us 14:18 in a position where we got to go communicate with the devil? 14:20 No, He takes it upon Himself to fight with us and for us 14:26 You know to me that's a huge concept, the fact that we are 14:30 His children, caught in the middle but He chooses not to say 14:33 you go tell him, you go do this you do that. No He communicates 14:38 with us by reminding us that He loves us while we acknowledge 14:42 the fact that yes we are caught in the middle but here's how 14:45 we're going to handle the situation 14:46 But God is sure of Himself but we are not sure of ourselves 14:51 we've got this thing going on inside of us, insecurity 14:55 but God doesn't have the insecurity factor 14:57 you see we seek to control, God doesn't seek to control 15:01 love doesn't control and that's the difference there. I think. 15:06 I mean what if the child doesn't want to choose? 15:11 You know sometimes God uses the person less involved to bring 15:16 common sense to it. You know you're over here trying to fight 15:20 between each other, who's right or wrong or I should have my way 15:23 and the child is like, no I don't wanna choose 15:27 I want my family. I don't care who's right or wrong. 15:30 I want both of you. Sometimes I remember and this is now 15:37 being transparent, my wife and, I, and this was something that 15:42 you know we try our best, we make our stands at the beginning 15:46 of our marriage, of if we ever get into an argument 15:49 we're going to go into a room, we're not argue in front of 15:51 the child. We tried those things but sometimes just human nature 15:56 you allow the enemy to take control and we got into an 15:59 argument right there in front of the kids. And you can hear 16:03 the kids, mommy, daddy stop it. You guys always fighting 16:07 Stop it, stop it. And like I'm kind of scuffing my son 16:13 no, no I need to get my point across. You don't understand 16:18 right now. And then later on like maybe the evening 16:24 or whatever we're talking and when you do this with your kids 16:31 is there anything you want to talk about in our family? 16:35 And then when they tell you those hard things you don't want 16:38 to hear, that's why sometimes you don't open up Pandora's box 16:41 with them. I hate it when you guys fight. And my second son 16:47 told me, it makes it feel like you guys don't want us 16:53 We were arguing about us but he was feeling like we don't want 16:58 them and so we don't know what kind of ripple effect it's gonna 17:05 have on our children. So the best thing to do is do what's 17:11 best for the relationship. And what's best for the relationship 17:14 is not win but make sure that the family wins. 17:21 I think that's key because again it's just the fact that 17:23 you know we call that collateral damage, pretty much 17:28 Our children have become, not our children but collateral 17:30 damage. For what? For what reason? 17:33 And then the thing is those are those same coping strategies 17:36 in the relationships. And dare I say they might 17:39 use those same coping strategies with God Himself? 17:43 You know why can't we, I mean, solutions to this 17:47 are exponential. But one of the things to me is just letting 17:51 pride go. That's the biggest thing. You know let it go. 17:55 Even though you're right and you know in your heart 17:57 you are right. But is it worth damaging your child? 18:02 Permanently? It's difficult to let it go because again 18:06 we are trying to control and once we understand that we 18:12 don't need to control anything we just need to be able to love 18:17 each other and just be real reflective in what we do 18:23 and how we do things. There is a, I don't know if it's a 18:28 question but, in a home, let's say in a home somebody poses 18:32 this question to me, in a home they're trying to make the 18:36 wife function in a certain way and they don't feel the wife is 18:42 doing all the nice things what they should do to be a mother 18:47 to the children and so they're having this argument so 18:51 they stopped talking to each other and what they're doing now 18:54 is talking through the children 18:56 putting that child, but they call it they're trying to help 19:00 the child become better so that when that child grows up 19:05 when the young lady grows up to be an adult she can find 19:09 learn how to cook, learn how to do this because the wife 19:12 is not doing it. So in that way, to me that is 19:17 that husband controlling and by doing that putting that child 19:23 in the middle of the mess and don't need to put the child in 19:29 the middle of the mess, all they're trying to do 19:33 is to say you need to not be like your mother. 19:37 But you need to be this way. I don't see God that way. I see 19:41 God as dealing with us on an individual basis even within 19:46 our homes. I think God loves us so much that He says, man 19:50 I need to fix you and I'm not going to go through you 19:55 to fix you, I'm going to you directly 19:57 And that's how I think as fathers we need to deal with 20:02 the spouse directly and not going through the child 20:06 and put the child in the middle of situations 20:11 In my home my kids, my wife, my daughter is very sensitive 20:16 if we start to argue she starts to cry 20:19 all these years, she starts to cry and she would say 20:25 it's my fault. It has nothing to do with her 20:30 she thinks it's her fault. So we had to really check that 20:36 so you know what? Now we're just talking, just dialoguing 20:42 even the dialogue, even when it's passionate you know 20:46 sometimes you get that dialogue and it's passionate, you're not 20:48 arguing but she hears it and she starts to cry 20:52 she feels it's her fault. Those are the things that 20:54 damage children for a long time. 20:58 You know my parents, even as an adult, you're talking about 21:04 you know your child at home, even as an adult when my parents 21:08 get into it sometimes you want to leave the room 21:12 You're like you guys are married now actually for 30 years 21:16 and change. When is it going to stop? 21:21 When are you going to find to get along? 21:25 But then you look now, I've been married now for 12 years 21:30 and I'm repeating some of these same things and yes, no marriage 21:34 is perfect in that case. Of course you're going to have 21:37 disagreements but it's how you do it. 21:41 You know there was a, you can learn from older couples 21:45 that have been married 50 or 60 years. Not the ones just 21:49 tolerating each other but the ones that really love each other 21:52 you know there's a difference. And one, I'll never forget the 21:57 Beezers. When I was in New York, before he passed he stressed 22:02 this to me and my wife. We were just dating then and he said 22:07 never argue in front of your children, and he said never 22:13 bring down the other because when you bring the person down 22:16 you're bringing yourself down because you chose that person 22:21 we forget that whether you're married or you're just in a 22:26 dating relationship, you chose this person so technically 22:30 you're bringing yourself down. 22:34 So therefore, when you bring this, trying to insult this 22:38 person that's why you lose when you insult the other person 22:42 So there's no winning in that way. The only way to win is 22:46 uplifting the other person, uplifting them 22:49 especially in front of their children. 22:50 You know we're all gonna make mistakes. All of us we've made 22:53 mistakes as fathers, but I tell you the great way to fix it 22:58 even if you have an argument, you put the children 23:03 in the middle, don't let the sun go down on your wrath 23:07 they need to see that. They need to see at the end of the day 23:11 yes, my dad and my mom they've had their little friction and 23:16 they were sending messages through me but at the end of 23:20 the day they've come together and they're loving each other. 23:24 And they're talking to each other, they didn't let the sun 23:27 go down on their wrath. And I think that's a very important 23:32 lesson we need to teach our children, especially as fathers 23:36 it's our responsibility to call a truce, so you know what 23:41 I'm gonna back up I'm calling a truce here 23:43 because it's for the betterment of the family 23:46 Man I love what you're saying and if you don't mind me 23:48 if we could just talk like guys for a second 23:50 You know a lot of times we're not gonna be perfect of course 23:53 let's throw that out of the window we're not going to always 23:58 go to the room and have the discussion there. Sometimes 24:01 we are going to blast or have the confrontation in front 24:05 of the kids. But if you do, if you do, just like he said 24:11 don't let the sun go down on your anger you have to make up 24:14 your make up has to be big and when you're doing it in front 24:17 of your kids, I mean do it big elaborate, lift your wife up 24:22 and let everybody know she's the greatest thing kiss her all over 24:26 her face, let her know, bring her flowers, bring her whatever 24:29 make it big let your child see, Ok we made a mistake 24:35 we don't always agree but this is the woman I chose. I'm so 24:39 proud of my choice. This is your mother. She's a blessing 24:43 to me. So like you said you have to set the pace as a man 24:48 Don't let the sun go down on your anger but when you do 24:52 make things up, make it even bigger than the argument 24:56 bigger than the argument 24:58 What you show to that child is that you show that your children 25:02 that wait a minute when they get into the same situation 25:06 cause they're gonna get into that situation when they get 25:08 married, they will be in the same situation. It shows them 25:11 it models for them how to fix it 25:16 This is how you fix it, if you get into confrontation 25:19 let's make up, let's do something great 25:23 What if it's the baby momma? 25:26 What if it's an ex-wife? 25:28 Same thing, same thing. You can't bring her flowers 25:31 What's that sign you know, you know 25:32 because you do have the time especially when you don't live 25:37 with someone, you know you don't live with the mother of the 25:40 child, when you interact with that person remember this is 25:46 still the child's mother right? And this was the choice you made 25:50 the child never had a part in this decision. This was a choice 25:55 you made, you still gotta lift them up. You may not agree 25:58 with what they say. That's right, that's right 26:00 But you have to be the man of God, after God's own heart 26:05 and lift them up. You mentioned it earlier about how God 26:09 interacts between Satan and us and how we are in the middle 26:14 notice how God talks even about Satan. He points out, yes 26:18 he's the deceiver, he's the liar but He doesn't break him down 26:23 He doesn't, oh he did this to me when he has in heaven 26:26 this is what he did. He doesn't do that. 26:30 He lets you know, hey he's a deceiver but I have a better way 26:35 Look at me. But rather look at how Satan does it 26:38 Satan brings God down. His thing is to bring down so that 26:42 bring down attitude is that of Satan. 26:45 Man that was awesome. I just, we ran out of time 26:49 I want to pick this up though, I really do because 26:52 we have a lot of good things to talk about and definitely 26:55 some things to expound upon cause this just gets deeper 26:58 and deeper every time. So as you know there are no easy answers 27:02 there is no easy Yes, nothing easy at all 27:06 for being a father is hard especially if your child is 27:10 caught in the middle. But as men of God we're called to be 27:14 better, to rise above, to take our children, to protect 27:17 our children by any means necessary. 27:20 So please, if you're a man and right now you're caught in a 27:24 argument and your child's caught in the middle 27:26 pray and rise above. Please protect your child 27:30 Thank you for watching, I want to see you again 27:33 until the next time. |
Revised 2017-01-10